1: The stealing of antiquity as a source of “richer history”
2: The US has stolen antiquity as a source of “richer history”
3: The US has stolen and altered Greco-Roman antiquity to connect themselves to a “richer history”
4: The US has stolen and altered Greco-Roman antiquity through the means of architecture and modern media, to connect themselves to a “richer history.”
5: The US has stolen and altered Greco-Roman antiquity through the means of architecture and modern media to claim descendance from a prized civilization.
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Counterintuitive Fall 2022 
I love your Hypothesis, Pluto, but I don’t understand it.
I guess Washington DC is full of buildings that seem to be “stolen” from mostly Greek architectural models, with the putative purpose of trading on something grand and fundamentally fair. Do you mean that? As far as what modern media we’ve stolen, I like forward to you enlightening me.
Like all feedback, this is meant to begin a conversation, Pluto.
I am eager to hear your reply.
Sorry for the crazy long reply haha
Truthfully, I think when I was contemplating my hypothesis, my head was in 40 different spaces. I like to say my head is like a jeopardy board that’s just waiting for a category to be asked about lol I think the same seems to hold true when I try to collect my thoughts
but anyways my thoughts that definitely need to be more refined:
to clarify: I would primarily like to argue about the idea that the US intentionally tries to claim Greco-Roman antiquity as its own. Here’s what I mean:
I was thinking about how there is the current hot topic of where the Elgin Marbles belong (Greece or Britain.) The arguments on both sides are valid, but to which civilization do they really belong to? Who’s history is it? I would argue that Britain is trying to tie themselves to ancient Greece through keeping these marbles. We even see the idea of connecting to the ancient civilization in productions such as Monty Python. The Holy Grail greatly mirrors the tale of Odysseus and the Life of Brian shows even more clearly the attempt to tie the two cultures. The US does something similar.
For example:
– Medical schools in the US- they take the Hippocratic oath. Why? If anyone bothered to read Hippocrates they would realize real quick that even for his time, he was a horrid practitioner. Not just bad at his job, but also discriminatory. In addition, there isn’t much evidence that he actually did exist and that his works weren’t just collections of other peoples conclusions.
-In original descriptions of Pennsylvania, written by William Penn and his team were all written in Greek, Latin, or an awful combination of the two. again.. why? We also see evidence of intentional Greek/Roman/ and even Etruscan architecture within Philly (E.g. TONS of Corinthian columns. Some doric, some Ionic. Placement of the staircase dependent on the buildings function. The type of platform it’s placed on. ) We don’t just see this architecture in PA, but also in D.C and even more random places. The mayo clinic in Minnesota also has a lot of extreme resemblances to ancient architecture
-In addition, all of these marble buildings are displayed as shining white marble, even in US history textbooks. The photos of “Ancient Greece/ Rome show the pretty white marble, giving the impression that the original culture would’ve built things, intending them to be without color. The absence of color couldn’t be further from the truth
-George Washington said he prided himself on Cincinnatus… I’m just going to leave that one there.
-To get into college in the US, originally students had to take a placement test in Greek, Latin, or even both to get in. In some colleges/universities, the only two options of study back then were the “Sciences,” or the “Classics”
-Let’s tackle verbiage, we call ancient Greek and Roman studies the “Classics” but for what purpose? It insinuates an elitism that comes with being a part of the culture or understanding the culture.
In Media:
– Chiraq (A modern Spike Lee film) was supposedly based off Aristophanes’ Lysistrata. We also see use of Lysistrata in modern feminist movements, however it couldn’t be further from a feminist text or a text about rights. It’s basically a comedy.
-The Musical 7 Brides for 7 Brothers is based off of the Rape of the Sabine women (The start to the founding of Rome) … Awful
-More obvious adaptations include Troy and 300, but here is my qualm. Aside from the fact that they are just horrible adaptations, the majority of the actors are Caucasian. Why not use actors that would be of the right race to be historically accurate? Again, it makes us feel as though we are connected to this civilization that we really aren’t
Overall point being that we are trying to take a culture that is not rightfully ours and “Making it ours” by trying to associate ourselves to a civilization that there is minimal chance we have decadency from.
I don’t really know how to articulate my thoughts very well, but this is what is running through my head.
I am really enjoying this exchanges so far, Pluto.
My reflex reactions, for what they’re worth.
—It’s hard to prove that a country claims anything.
—I think trying to hold onto the Elgin Marbles doesn’t mean “We are ancient Greece.” It means, “We saved these when you were neglecting them, and you owe them to us in return. You’re welcome.”
—Comedy writers (this goes for all producers of dramatic arts including your examples of Spike Lee and 7 Brides) are much better at making fun of cultural icons or trading on familiar storylines than creating new characters and storylines of their own. Charlie Chaplin sent up Hitler, but you wouldn’t claim he wanted to borrow Hitler’s prestige.
—Thank you for sending me in search of the Hippocratic Oath. I had never read the whole thing. It’s fantastic. Did you know it prohibits doctors from raping the women of the home when they make house calls? (Most medical schools have abandoned the oath. It also doesn’t contain the phrase, “First, do no harm.”)
—I think I like best your observations about our colonial persistence in studying “the Classics” and in fashioning our most institutional buildings in Greek or Roman style. I want to ask you whether you think this is American, or whether every European country that sent colonists to America already came with those predilections intact.
I’m sympathetic to your objection about cultural appropriation. My question would be how often is it appropriation and how often is it just influence or casual copying?
Wherever this conversation goes, I’m thrilled to be having it. Thanks, Pluto.
I’m glad that you’re enjoying these conversations! I am super passionate about Greek and Roman studies in general so I get really excited to share and converse about it!
-I think as far as the Elgin marbles go, I wouldn’t argue that they were stolen because Greece was neglecting them. They were stolen during a period where a lot of countries, not just Britain, stole a lot of Greece’s history. It just happens to be the most famous example. Britain’s only argument now is that they obtained them legally (although not ethically) at the time… I do believe that it is because they want to connect themselves to the civilization (The Golden Nugget effect) Although I do see how that is very difficult to entirely prove.
-I had never heard of the Charlie Chaplin film, but will definitely have to check it out. I am curious to see how he includes the history in comparison to the films that I’ve seen referencing Greek and Roman events.
-The Hippocratic oath is truly such an interesting read. People have heard about it, but not many haven’t read it. I know my reaction when I first read it was total disbelief since it’s still used today or forms of it are used today. If you thought that was an interesting read, there are some really interesting “medical documents” claiming things about how the wind is why you get sick, or the humours in your body being in “Balance,” and my personal favorites are the ones explaining women’s health. I’m sure you could imagine how awful the claims are…
-I think that it is an “American” thing, but I truly haven’t traveled anywhere outside the US. I don’t really know what architecture in Europe looks like. The reason I am quick to say it’s an American thing is because we founded our country based off of how much we couldn’t stand being ruled by the British (to put it shortly lol.) If the British had the same mindset and same ideas I feel that the early American developers would’ve strayed far away from “British Ideals.”
-I do not necessarily feel that the copying is wrong, but I do find it interesting. Truthfully a lot of the bad parts of history get omitted from the public’s general knowledge. Even when it’s foreign and ancient.
-Basically, here’s what this post is making me realize: I have a hundred and one different ideas and things I would love to write about/discuss. I think I need to hone in on something that is easy to prove/disprove, and is clean cut. I will do some thinking and reply back to this when my 10 trains of thought settle in one station…
Just a couple things at the moment.
1. Charlie Chaplin “The Great Dictator”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDX2tCkCM4o
The whole thing is good, but the final speech 1:59:00 to the end is epic.
2. Derivation of Hysteria / Hysterectomy:
hysteria (n.)
nervous disease, 1801, coined in medical Latin as an abstract noun from Greek hystera “womb,” from PIE *udtero-, variant of *udero- “abdomen, womb, stomach” (see uterus). Originally defined as a neurotic condition peculiar to women and thought to be caused by a dysfunction of the uterus. With abstract noun ending -ia. General sense of “unhealthy emotion or excitement” is by 1839.
hysterectomy (n.)
surgical removal of a woman’s hysteria
I slightly edited the second part. 🙂 But you get the idea.